Question: BK Lies, methods and BapDada
The questions/comments are here. I will summarize them in my response.
Thank you Ex-L for stopping by. Your presence in this blog, is an open invitation for anyone with an interest in Brahma Kumaris.
I’d like to acknowledge “Ex-L” contribution to changes in the BK methodology. For those of you who may not know, Ex-L is the main founder of the website “BrahmaKumaris.info.”
A “method” is a label representing a bunch of steps, beliefs, ideas, ideals, procedures which are used with the objective to accomplish something concrete or ideal.
“Spirituality” is full of idealistic “methods” or “yuktis” for that is the intellectual way of tackling a “problem.”
Brahma Kumaris is an institution made by a diversity of people. There are honest and dishonest people and everything in between.
The common BK objective is the ideal to be like God, gain salvation, a high status in the Golden age. Being a BK follower means to follow the prescribed method to accomplish that goal.
A characteristic of a “spiritual method” is that it is never wrong. It is perfect (ideal.) But a follower may fail in following the method so failure is shifted onto the follower. If there is apparent “success” it is because of the method, which brings validity to the institution teaching the method. That is the game.
BK ideas/beliefs may be lies to others. Even though proven lies, the method is infallible and to protect it becomes a sign of someone who is “worthwhile” (pukka.) BK procedures may be hurtful as seen by others. Their modus operandi may be devious as seen by others; but those are natural consequences of the interpretation of the method by followers. It is not “wrong” from their perspective, but “numberwise.” For a BK, the ways of society may be looked at as “wrong,” sinful, impure. There is rejection underneath. This rejection is necessary in the beginning, to transition from “normal” society into the BK method.
A “normal” person thinks that he can distinguish what is right from what is wrong however; their selection is according to their conditioning. Society is a way of conditioning, a “method” by all means, just like BK conditioning, thus our ideas of morality are heavily conditioned.
Hope that I clarified what I mean by the word “method.”
Let me go into the lies now.
“Raja Yoga is the most ancient path.”
From the viewpoint of world history (mainstream beliefs of society) Raja Yoga may not be/ is not the most ancient path. From the viewpoint of Brahma Kumaris (the method) Raja Yoga is the most ancient, considering their belief in cyclical time and their belief that Brahma Kumaris influences the future “Deity religion” in the Golden age. Thus, when the new Kalpa “starts”, it is according to the influences of BK Raja Yoga.
Who is lying? It all depends on what you subscribe to.
From my perspective, a cycle means that the most ancient is at the same time, the newest thing (which is the perception of mainstream society, since the BK movement started less than 100 years ago.)
Mainstream morality condemns lying as evil, bad, sinful, etc.
Nevertheless, there are times when lies are not only necessary but “good.” Lies may have utilitarian or psychological value, they may be said unwillingly, by omission, for protection, etc. Thus, I lie, you lie, Brahma Kumaris lies, the rest of the world lies, Jesus Christ lies as well. His line: “ I am the son of God” from my perspective, is a lie. From a Christian’s that is the truth.
Here is a referential link . It is about the morality of lying. As you could see it is a complex topic from an intellectual, philosophical viewpoint. Not all lies are “bad.” Intention seems to be the factor that decides the consequences of that lie. Look at the consequences of the lie. Look at the intention. Religious “spiritual” methods typically “lie” through simplicity so masses can understand. A black or white commandment: “Thou shalt not lie,” sounds “good” it is ideal, but Life is not a “black or white” “reality.” I am not defending lies. I am not defending truth, for both are 2 extremes of the same rope. A duality. Truth brings lies and lies bring truth. That is why, I have written that I do not share “truth.” I share my experiences.
Human morality is not a standard of “goodness” in Life. But only in our society.
BapDada does not act based upon our conditioned understanding of human morality. His perspective is different and it comes from knowing what the “Drama” (Life) is and will be, not what human morality dictates.
Even though many “lies” of the BK institution have been disclosed with evidence, yet still people will sign up with the Brahma Kumaris. Why?
Because people had an experience which was valuable for them. That is their valid perspective. That is their starting point in “spirituality.”
I signed up with Brahma Kumaris because I had experiences with Brahma Baba through my sister. Without those there is no way on Earth that I could have followed the BK “method.” Along the path I met many unique individuals and had many karmic accounts to “settle” with BKs, which were necessary to change me.
Let me clarify. I don’t mean to say that to lie is OK. There are consequences. A liar will not be trusted. That is a consequence. Many could say: “How terrible the BKs are because they are liars, they deceive people, steal their money and try to get VIPs because they are social climbers.” But let us not generalize. In our society, what the BKs do is legal until proven otherwise. No one better than the BKs to understand about the consequences of actions done with the intention to deceive individuals although the label used, may be in the name of “service.”
Do I feel that I was conned?
The BK method put me through a lot of experiences. 10 years of my Life with many unconventional experiences. I went honestly, full force with it from the beginning. Without the BK experience I wouldn’t be able to understand what I do now. In Life, experiences are meant to change consciousness. Humans judge whether an experience is “good” or “bad.” Life does not. It is not for me to judge the method that Life brings for change. Thus, the word I may use after about 4 years of being out of the BK movement is “thankful” rather than conned. Of course, I went through my process of feeling relief, then anger and denial, but the outcome is gratefulness. I can move on.
We cannot say that we are over the BK experience, while we have rejection in us; while the memory of it is moving us emotionally. It is out of our system, when we could accept that others and I have the same right to go through this experience, if willing to. I have experienced very dear ones literally dying while in the BK movement, for their belief in the BK experience was very strong. That is their right, and the extent of acceptance of the BK method that I am talking about. If the BK experience lingers by upsetting us even though we are not there anymore, there is a trauma which needs to be healed.
The BK method has many lies and false predictions, but still is “good” for many as it is. Change of consciousness does not judge if a method is made up or lies or not. What matters is to go honestly through the experiences that this method will bring. When we discover the shortcomings, the method is no longer valid for us. It is over, but an honest follower will need to discover that for himself. No second hand in it.
“Don’t think, don’t question” is an incomplete line. It could be labeled as a half-truth or a lie.
Don’t think, don’t question, don’t do, don’t make effort… Just BE…is the complete line… but yet, it may be a lie for others.
For the common good.
Dinesh Chawla, 
ahnanda, and 1 other are discussing. 
Brahma Kumaris and Beyond - Avyakt7 
ex-l 3:19 PM on April 4, 2017 Permalink |
I’d like time to think about this more.
One of my more pronounced criticisms of the Brahma Kumaris is that ethics and morality, or the discussion of them, really have no place or are given no emphasis within the “method”, or madness, of BKism.
For me, not far from what you are saying, “expedience” … that is what is convenient, useful or practical for their aims … and submission and conformity to the leaders’ will are their primary guiding principles.
Attitudes, I would argue, that are rooted in the founders’ very specific Sindi merchantile culture rather than spiritual absolutes. One thing for sure, the The Buddh’s fourth precept was not “inspired by BKism last kalpa” … unless it was a reaction against BKism.
To start to raise questions about ethics and morality is to lead very quickly to unravelling BKism and, consequently, I would say, is responded to defensively as a threat of challenged. This was my expeirence with skilled and inveterate liars, like Janki Kirpalani.
Within BKism, it is OK to lie and knowingly mislead, for example … and, yes, I mean lie … to the authories, non-BK family members, employers, VIPs or official immigration departments, if it is useful or beneficial to the cult. All one has to do is magically invoke Shiva in one’s “rememberance” and all karma is reduced or removed … so they claim.
How can I say this so surely? I was told to do so by seniors.
When is a lie and lie rather than a “method”?
I would when it done so consciously and manipulatively, hence flagging up the “Ancient Art of Raja Yoga” canard. At least senior and educated BKs know that BK Raja Yoga is not the real “Ancient” raja Yoga of Patanjali and all BKs know that the rest of the world rejects their 5,000 Year identical cycle of time theory. Therefore, in something as key to their marketing, manipulating of others beliefs, I think we can can say it is a deliberately deception. And ‘deliberately deception’ of those less aware, less educated, more vulnerable … for the sake of self-interest or gain … has to wrong.
Or at least very carefully used in extreme situations only.
Again, I think you have tilted the conversation or my criticism back again to “BK ideas/beliefs may be lies to others”.
That is a different question … who know what the “truth” is going to be at the end of time … who knows who or what The Baba™ is and what their agenda is, except for the annihilation of 7 billion human beings by nuclear war. Who even know is that is a good or bad thing (sometimes, I’ll admit, I think it would not be a bad thing as far as the environment and other species go!).
My concern is with the deliberate and widespress practice of deception by the leaders over the followers, and by the followers to their families and outsiders, through simple, real world dishonesty.
It’s amazing but even know, perhaps 10 years after we debunked many of their historical claims as deliberately constructed lies intent on protecting their own self image, the inner circle of BKism is still unable to accept and correct a true account of their beginnings.
They oppose simple truths even in sincere followers and supporters, and that’s a dangerous symptom. For if they are willing and able to construct defences to even simple truths … what is their response to even more complex and difficult ones … such their claims of being god inspired and an exclusive and elitist monopoly over god etc.
(* BTW, I found your site searching for an original version of the 16 Celestrial Degrees or Divine Arts. I see they’ve woven a few more layers on top of it. I had not been following your evolution until this time).
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Dinesh Chawla 2:05 AM on April 6, 2017 Permalink |
Hey ex-I, (Ahnanda, may be it’s ex-I and not ex-L 😛 )
This is awareness_being here, hope you kind of remember me from your bhramakumaris.info site 🙂
It’s so good to see you here on Ahndy’s site, well Ahndy is nickname I have given him (Ahnanda). Umm, your concerns and things raised about BKs are valid, but again I would emphasise on one thing here, there are many small and mediocre organisations in India having fake gurus and they preach hanky panky stuff. We surely can’t go against everyone and stop them from doing what they are doing.
But I am not saying that you are against BKs here, may be you want them to clarify that they are not what they claim to be… May be 🙂
But you know something that matters is that what we want to do with our life, like in my case I want to know whether I can get rid of this cycle of birth and death or not. But so far, the cycle of birth and death is kind of confusing me… 🙂
Anyways, hope to see more interesting stuff from you on Ahndy’s site 🙂 BTW I belong to Sindhi community too, that too from the same village of dada Lekhraj Kriplani 🙂
Isn’t that interesting!! 🙂
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ex-l 8:41 AM on April 6, 2017 Permalink |
From the same village of dada Lekhraj Kriplani? That’s very interesting.
I always found the Sindi family naming conventions difficult to penetrate. I read that this was deliberately done so for superstitious reasons (astrology/numerology/witchcraft) and, later, unlawful reasons … a lack of transparency in business.
Can you confirm his original caste status?
Yes, I agree with you regarding the “small and mediocre organisations having fake gurus” and, of course, that’s not just limited to India.
Organised religion to me is pretty much 99.9% business and the majority are a scam.
But this is the question Ahndy has raised … should we authenticate a scam by calling it a method.
I can see where, in his position, it is “bad for business”, or bad “method”, to be too openly critical of BKism, if his primary readship is BKs.
I can also understand how, having made such an intensive investment into BKism, he cannot bring himself to be too openly critical of it either. That is understandable.
However, I reject the question of morally being dragged down to a too subjective level, that including the emphasis on “the experience”.
And I think he is absolutely wrong, from a moral and a legal point of view, when he rights what the Brahma Kumaris does is “legal until proven otherwise”.
That’s wrong. A crime is a crime is a crime regardless of whether the police catch me, and I am prosecuted and found guilt, or not. The majority of guilty criminals are never successfully proescuted.
If I mug or con and old lady out of her life savings, if I traffick a young girl and make her work as an unpaid servant for years or even her life without any rights … as the Brahma Kumaris have done time and time again … I am guilty of a crime whether that old lady or young girl have the strength to report me and the police to resources to build a prosecution or not.
We are trying to define the line between deception and dishonest, and spiritual method.
In this case, I am attempting to defend the good name of “spiritual method” from deception and dishonesty plain and simple.
And I’d like the BKs to stop doing the later. To stop polluting other soceities than their own.
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Dinesh Chawla 12:04 PM on April 6, 2017 Permalink |
Dear ex-I,
Thanks for your reply, I can think about going totally against BKs only after I destroy my “I”. Ahnanda may be able to know what I mean by this “I”. Observe Ahnanda’s writings, in spite of writing in English, which is a two-ness language, meaning duality exists in the language itself. He is able to explain everything yet nothing, one needs that much understanding and level of enlightenment to speak in favour or against some spiritual organisation.
Have you heard about Master Osho, he was against all religions and spiritual organisations including BKs, he has spoken against BKs as well, but only once for 10 minutes, that was actually sufficient for him to prove that BKism is not the path of SELF realisation and God realisation. One needs that level of enlightenment to prove that something is not a valid thing. And according to me Osho did posses that level. Well Ahnanda too, but … you know… Ahnanda has said in one of his comment that Ego can’t be dissolved completely, but I need to verify that!!
Anyways, Sindhi’s are criticised for one thing that they thing about only about their profit all the time, they are business minded people, that’s the speciality of Sindhi’s, that’s all I know about Sindhi’s being criticised. And about the village, most probably it was Hyderabad city, in the state of Sindh in Pakistan where BKs was started by Dada Lekhraj with a small satsang at his home named Om Mandli.
Well, peace and godly love for you ex-I. 🙂
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ahnanda 10:58 AM on April 7, 2017 Permalink |
Dinesh,
You are very inquisitive and you like to improve yourself. Those are good qualities.
A couple things that may help: Nicknames are not accepted by everyone. Ask before taking the liberty to do it. In this blog, I am known as “avyakt7-ng” or “Ahnanda.” That is what i wish to be called.
I also suggest that quoting others without context is misquoting. You know that language is dualistic. You know that language cannot express things accurately, but yet you keep quoting others. Please share your own realizations, your own experiences and ideas.
Osho couldn’t be against all religions and spiritual organizations, if he was a realized being. Osho merely showcased that those who thought to have “truth” were deceiving themselves and others. Since religious organizations, spiritual organizations, etc. are interested in “having truth,” these organizations were shown that in fact, they didn’t.
As misinterpretation came around through followers, even Osho’s legacy was turned into another organization. Followers tend to water down and misinterpret the “teachings” of their gurus.
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Dinesh Chawla 1:00 PM on April 8, 2017 Permalink |
I agree with Ahnanda, but tomorrow even if I get some of my own experience, my own realisation, my own idea, can I call it mine, can I really say that Dinesh has found it!! that experience, realisation or idea already exists out there in the universe, Dinesh is not just AWARE about it, has any scientist created any law, has any enlightened being created any TRUTH! they simply came across it!!
Calling any experience as my experience, my idea, my realisation is also subtle ego and attachement Ahnanda… 🙂
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avyakt7- New Generation 8:38 PM on April 10, 2017 Permalink |
Even though many times we think that we “understood” the “concepts,” we did not. We may not call a realization, experience, idea as “mine,” but yet you have this idea (your idea) about liberating yourself from the cycle of birth and death.
That idea you can talk about all you want as “yours.”
Let me tell you about “my” experience. This is “my” experience; but it is not really “mine,” for the experience was there and I only became AWARE of it. For if I say that it is “mine” that is subtle ego and I become attached to it….
So was that really my experience? Or should I talk about “the” experience?
OK! This is “the” experience…
Wait a minute! Who’s experience? Is that yours or someone else?
It is “mine” but I cannot say “mine” for I am AWARE is not “mine.”
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ahnanda 11:02 AM on April 7, 2017 Permalink |
Ex-L,
Time is precious. At this time, I do not have lots of it. Life changes.
You have shared your views. I have shared mine. We could agree to disagree.
Your attempts to defend the good name of spiritual methods from deception and dishonesty, are laudable. All the best to you in that huge task.
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